Why is everyone convinced that Doomsday will end with the heroes losing, and then winning in Secret Wars?

because that's how cliffhangers work

Cause that’s how it happened in comics

You can’t have battle world without blowing up the existing universes.

It’s not a “doomsday” if they win

It makes way more sense for them to win in secret wars.

They wouldnt be throwing piles and piles of characters into this unless they planned to massacre half of them.

How do you get from Doomsday to Secret Wars without them at the very least not winning?

Financially it's too big an expenditure (hiluge cast of supes = huge CGI budget so as not to look like poo) not to have it be a two or more part story to "conclusion".

I kind of hope that it works like that but not.


I dont want an EndGame thing where people lose for one movie. I want Doomsday to bring all these people together for a large portion of them to lose and for Secret Wars to show us the future of the MCU.


Doomsday as a finale. Secret Wars as a premiere. 

How do you see them winning in doomsday but then secret wars still happens?

Tropes

Why else would they be making two movies back-to-back? Do you know anything about storytelling? This is a vary basic storytelling device

People are tired of winning after too much winning.

Recency bias from Infinity Wars

That's how Dad did it, that's how America does it. And it's worked out pretty well so far.

In all seriousness, most of the Avengers / protagonists are already taken off the board, so the "New Avengers" or whoever else is left will likely lose, due to lack of experience.

\- Dr. Strange is multiversal traveling
\- Ant-Man is possibly in another universe
\- Scarlet Witch died outside the sacred timeline
\- Loki exists outside of time
\- Monica Rambeau is stuck in an X-Men timeline
\- Iron Man is dead
\- Cap is old and... on the moon?
\- Black Widow is dead
\- Vision is dead, or... just not himself these days.
\- Hulk is injured
\- Hawkeye is injured
\- Black Panther is dead

I could go on. I believe this was intentional to pluck each character off the board, (with the exception of Chadwick Boseman's actual IRL death) so that losing would be in the cards for Doomsday (or originally the Kang Dynasty). It will make it all the more sweeter when they reunite everyone for victory in Secret Wars.


…because Hawkeye isn’t going to be in Doomsday and they have a 100% win rate against their enemies with Hawkeye.

They defeated the Chitauri and Loki with Hawkeye, they defeated Ultron with Hawkeye. In Infinity War they lost to Thanos without him and then in Endgame they defeated Thanos with him.

…That means Hawkeye is the strongest Avenger and him not being in Doomsday means they will lose!

Because we’ve all watched The Empire Strikes Back.

It’s the simplest explanation so it’ll be used. The only deviation might be is like half of the heroes will think they won because they are with Doom but once he wins and sends everyone to Battleworld, they realize they fucked up. Some lose and then everyone loses. I won 3000!!!!


Cause you don't punk out Doctor Doom in his debut

Because it happened before. And it worked.

Because they all just want another Infinity War and Endgame replica. Then will complain it was too similar. But they will also complain if it's too different.

Maybe the heroes will just lose every film after this. 
Just failure after failure.
And then after several films, a big win.

No way it would happen, but it would be so tight.

Nope, they will loose.

The fact that IW & EG already did it doesn't mean they won't do it again.

They rely on people thinking exactly that, then pulling the rug under them.

Because they are billed as one-two punches. It’s The Empire Strikes Back - Return of the Jedi arc.

I will say, while I agree that is likely to be the case to some degree, I do hope it's not that straightforward and they figure some way to change things up a bit.

Infinity War / Endgame version 2.0

Because that’s how the dark middle chapter has always worked since the beginning of serialized storytelling.

Because people are largely bad at coming up with stories and so they latch onto something they have seen before as "precedent" for predicting the exact same thing will happen again. 


Granted, giant corporations are also terrible at taking creative risks, so the chances they would greenlight a repeat of something that already made a lot of money is pretty high. 


So it's kind of a two wolves situation where both wolves suck. 

They said the same thing about F4...

What if? The heroes win and the villain returns the next movie? 🤣

The best way to add stakes, tension, and command attention, is to make the hero look weak, and since they are all superheros, they need to be defeated or Nerfed to feel weak.

Nerfing characters, like Tony having his big shiny heart removed and replaced with his "box of scraps" heart, made the ending of Iron man way more interesting. Without that, it's just 2 metal men punching eachother.

That's kind of how big epics work. They use the normal formula, but split it into 2 parts so that the bad guys can win and show the audience how powerful they are. We don't even know if Doom will lose in Secret Wars. He could just win 2 movies in a row.

I'm still not convinced the heroes lose, but there's a chance they win and still have to watch Doom walk away with a completed mission (and his life) to see another day.

The big thing I think people often forget when they say "that wouldn't make sense" is that whatever we fixate on as hardcore fans is likely not what 90 percent of the casual filmgoing audience knows of. There were people who saw Infinity War with no knowledge of the comics, about what Thanos was like in the comics, and that's kind of the point.

You're basing the idea that it wouldn't make sense to repeat what IW-EG did and that it wouldn't be surprising, but forgetting that those movies were nearly a decade ago, and most audiences have had lives that did not involve MCU theorizing and postulating over superhero fatigue/MCU humor. People have gotten laid, had multiple relationships, gone through heartbreak, gotten married, started careers, started businesses, bought houses, and had children in between these films. Time gets shorter as you get older and the repetitive/cyclical nature of the MCU has likely been on their minds for some time.

It's only the "true" nerds who have not had their memory cluttered with life events and predict/internalize film tropes and structure, and people who themselves are actually in the industry, who would truly be affected - that's likely not a heavy percentage of the population watching these movies. The Russos or whoever is involved with the writing can absolutely get away with repeating an Infinity War loss followed by an Endgame victory with Doomsday and Secret Wars.

Because that's what happened with Infinity War and Endgame. Also because it seems that they're adapting Hickman's Secret Wars and that's what happens in the source material.

I hope not, they already did that last time. It won't hit anywhere near the same.

We don't know what's going to happen, even if they were to repeat something similar to Infinity War-Endgame. 


And let's be honest, the vast majority of all these movies end with the "good guys" winning anyway, you could predict 97% of them correctly, but you'll still go watch them. 


Perhaps in this duology though they'll have the heroes lose twice, where the second is at best a pyrrhic victory where they assume the role of Thanos basically and can only stop Doom by way of ending the Multiverse. 

Because if they’re doing Doom right before Secret Wars, that’s what happens.

Because that’s how these movies always work.

Even if they end it with the hero’s winning, they won’t actually win, battle world will still be created.

Battleworld (the setting of Secret Wars in the comics that the movies are adapting) only came into existence because Doctor Doom constructed it from the remnants of several universes after 616 and the Ultimate Universe (the last 2 universes in existence) destroyed each other.

So tell me, how do you think Secret Wars happens if the heroes win?

Thats how it was in comics endgame just did its own shit

They win, in alliance with RDoomJr, but it's short-lived as they get double-crossed by DOOM because that's his nature and all that. In Secret Wars, Doom relinquishes his godhood because, you know, he finds it beneath him. So they win again, but not by guile or brute force, but because Doom always screws up at the end.

I think it's gonna be like..a false win scenario, where they manage to defeat Doom, but Dooms contingency is the Secret Wars, so instead of being able to relax and enjoy their victory, they're plunged right into another battlefield.

I mean, it's right there in the name. Twice.

"Doomsday," meaning a day of reckoning and final destiny.

Also, "Doom's Day" as in, the day belongs to Doom.

i don't think the heroes are gonna lose in the end but there will be a cliffhanger.. maybe a cliffhanger related to plot.. maybe avengers don't lose but something really bad happens that will mess up the reality or something...

Maybe something like Demon Slayer where all the Avengers are dropped into the multiverse, separated into different realities and they will have to fight different versions of doom or maybe different villains in Secret Wars...

One thing is certain they're not gonna lose in secret wars cuz that's not how storytelling works blud... 😭

Basically for Battleworld to exist (assuming they are going with the 2015 version) the heroes have to fail to save their worlds.

But granted if they want they could do this in the start of Secret Wars itself.

Because if they won in Doomsday we’d have no reason to watch secret wars. The reason we all watched Endgame was to see the heroes bounce back and save the world.

I think it’ll be closer to Civil War, with certain past and present hero’s taking sides and forming teams and the stakes are which side will win with the expectation that the other side of hero’s is out of the MCU forever

Because it seems like a two part-er, they seem to need to resolve the multiverse stuff, and combine all the IPs they got back into the main MCU.

To a certain degree, it can't really happen any other way. Unless there is an open conflict at the end of the first half of a story, there can be no second half. It would just be a second story with a new conflict.

Because we read the comics?

if the formula worked flawlessly
dont fix it if it aint broke

You mean repeat the formula that created the #1 and #4 grossing movies of all time? I can think of a couple of billion reasons they'd want to do that.

convinced Happy Hogan will die in front of Peter by the hands of Doom

Basic narrative structure.

What else do you want people to expect when Marvel sticks to the one formula that works? They are bringing the Russos back to direct this, it's gonna be split into two parts, and so on.

I mean, that's kinda how these things go. Yes, they could change up the formula, but the movies called Doomsday. That implies the end and/or a loss.

But if they could find a way to end the movie and form Battleworld with a loss that would be cool

I think the opposite. Everything in doomsday and loses in secret wars

It’s called DOOMSDAY.

Because the last Avengers crossover was a pair of films that had the first movie end with the heroes losing and the second movie having the heroes win.

Do you think this movie is going to be worth the hype? I personally am not much psyched about doomsday, it feels like too many loose ends for what

Because of they won in the first part, why would they need a second part?

Because when you deal with two movies of this nature leading into one another, you don't need the second if the heroes win in the first

Yes, it would be repeating the formula. How do you have a big bad that hasn’t been introduced beyond an end credits cameo be threatening for a world ending event. Secret War will be the end of the MCU as we’ve known it, but all of Marvel will be available in canon from that point on.

Cause half of the heroes are so cannon fodder they're not touching Doom

Look at the box office numbers from IW and EG and think about that question again.

Doomsday our universe is destroyed.
Secret wars our heros are all in different universes starting secret wars.

There’s no way in hell they’re going to end a saga on any sort of definitive loss.

Similarly, no way Doomsday—which will lead into secret wars—ends on any definitive win.

We may get a “win but at a major cost” in one or both, but it’s also kinda just a basic story structure expectation of the first part of 2.

Doomsday doesn't give the sound of losing to you?

Better idea: give them a very soft “win” at the end of Doomsday, with the help of Doom himself. Surprise the audience with a devastating loss in Secret Wars and announce a surprise third Avengers installment to round out a trilogy

Cause Doomsday = Doom’s Day. He has to win.

I keep wondering, what if they reversed it around, where the heroes win in doomsday, sort of like a bitter-sweet victory that ends in battle world, but then they lose in secret wars, and then the subsequent phase of movies and mutant saga content released after secret wars is all about dealing with the consequences of this loss. Then, this will eventually culminate in an even larger event some years down the line...

Sort of like dragging out the consequences of infinity war over a few seperate movie rather than resolving it all within a year or whatever.

Endgame was originally called Infinity War Part 2. I don't recall if that changed before or after Infinity War released. But knowing that, I fully went into Infinity War expecting them to lose. I just wasn't expecting it to be quite so devastating. I can't have been the only person to have figured that out.

Because it’s a 2 part movie

Also, I wonder if rather than being the ultimate villain and cause of the end of the multiverse e.t.c, Doom is merely a hero going about his very unethical way in trying to save yhe multiverse.

The true villain should just be the nature of the nultiverse and the uncontrollable incursions that forces Doom to act in his "villainous" ways

1. Nobody who knew the comic story ahead of time was surprised by how infinity war ended. It was great the emotional impact they made without really being that surprising.

2. Marvel is smart enough not to copy what they did in infinity war and endgame? Those films made them $2 billion each.

3. It may not have to be lose/win, but there’s gotta be some kind of cliffhanger in Doomsday and resolution in SW. Loss / win is the most obvious and being predictable in the broadest sense isn’t bad.

At this stage considering all the rewrites and changes, I assume they're defaulting to something familiar just to make something.

So I think that it’ll be a bait and switch. So in the comics Doom’s goal wasn’t destroying the multiverse he was actually saving it by merging them into battle world and ruling over it cause apparently the only possible future where humanity survives is one where he rules over it(even the wakandan god Baste agreed with him)

So I believe it’ll go like this, Doom will be going from place to place using Franklin’s power to get artifacts that will allow him to power up, manipulate reality, or something like that. In the midst the Fantastic 4 will be chasing him to get Franklin back, and Doom will pit them, the avengers, and the x men against each other. They will momentarily unite to stop whatever they THINK Doom’s plan is.

The X men’s universe will be annihilated by an incursion and at the end Doom’s plan will be revealed: instead of destroying the multiverse he stops the incursions by creating Battleworld to save the remaining universes. This runs parallel to Thanos’ goal of saving the universe by destroying half of the population except Doom creates one universe bringing the surviving populations to the 616 universe.

So Doom will still rule but the heroes realize he actually saved everyone but they can’t allow him to rule and keep Franklin thus that brings us into Secret Wars, some heroes and villains are working under Doom and others are forming a resistance to overthrow Doom